Bike woes in the Sierra Nevada Spain

austin

Well-Known Member
Seems a reasonable thing to do, even if just for testing purposes.

It would have been if the supplied part was the right one. BMW changed the shock during 2010 from Showa to White Power. The ESA motor is very different and I got a Showa one when I needed WP. But I did manage to make the motor whirr away by applying battery power to it, which doesn't prove anything other than I know which wires do what.

 

Lutin

Administrator
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Are the connections that same? If so at least you'll be able to test out the loom, if nothing else.
 

austin

Well-Known Member
Are the connections that same? If so at least you'll be able to test out the loom, if nothing else.

Yes they at the same but, umm, I might have to think about this. There is fault in the system saying "ESA Sensor Malfunction". I think the sensor in question is a Hall effect sensor in the motor/shock which I guess just counts the number of times the ESA motor has turned and uses that count to determine how much preload to add/subtract. (normal is 3% of the range and it then goes to 50% and 97% ). From the video the ESA motors on the two types of shock are very different and I think operate in different ways. But its probably worth a go - thanks for the tip. Tank off again tomorrow. :(
 

Philwhiskeydrinker

Well-Known Member
Are you sure they aren't stepper motors Austin. It's whats normally used for accurate backwards/forwards movement?

+2 on plugging in and trying,

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austin

Well-Known Member
Its Hall effect - its says so on the GS911 read out too. The damping is a stepper motor I believe, but that seems to be working ok.

I whipped the tank off today - I am getting good at that now, takes about 15minutes with most of the time being unscrewing the 8 panels and 20 odd bolts that cover the tank *. Anyway the eBay motor doesn't work hooked up to the bike, although on the ESA calibration test it whirred for ages but did nothing in reality. It doesn't really surprise me as its a different thing altogether and all the hydraulic plumbing is disconnected, although it could well point more towards software or ECU failure than hardware. There's a guy on UKGSer with the right shock/motor combo removed from his bike who is willing to loan it to me for a test. He is coming down from Scotland anyway in a few weeks time so is going to divert off the M6 to drop them off for me for a few days of testing. Hopefully that will confirm if its the motor or the software/ECU.

My original motor, still attached to the shock and bike, whirrs away with 12v applied directly to the connectors. Gawd knows what position it is in now as I figured that if I applied power one way it would wind until it met a stop, then if I reversed the polarity it would go back the other way to the other stop. All I had to do was work out which way dropped the bike, take it to the stop then give a touch of preload the other way and it would be set a about right. It did wind both ways but never stopped. It just kept going and going either way but with no discernible change in the bike's height. I may have fecked it. :eek:

* I managed to knacker a torx head bolt today too. First time I have ever rounded a Torx head - one of the main tank securing bolts too. T40 socket doesn't fit, I don't have a T35 in any of my sets (is there such a thing as T35/), and a T30 was very loose and rounded it. I must have tightened it a bit too much last time. A 5mm allen socket was hammered in though and did the business and luckily I had 2 of the right length M8 stainless countersunk bolts in my box of bolts. Phew :thumbsup:
 

Lutin

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According to Wikipedia, there is a T35. But it doesn't show any sizes (like for the others) and the reference they list is for an American tool merchant.

Maybe it's a BMW oddity - just to be bloody awkward. And expensive.
 

austin

Well-Known Member
Oh well the wallet hammering has begun. Currently sat in Bowker BMW in Preston for an initial diagnosis. It's been in the workshop 45mins already. I suspect they just want to throw a new shock at it.
 

austin

Well-Known Member
Good news and bad news i suppose.... the good bit was that they "only" charged me £36. The bad was that they don't know what's up with it. Its got them stumped and they said they have never seen anything like it before on any bike. The nearest that have seen is when a race team removes multiple electronic parts from S1000's that they don't need. The bike tends to start shutting down other components that receive inputs from these removed items.

The situation now is that the fault code has gone away. It went after I hooked up a borrowed shock with a known to be good ESA motor (it didn't work with this either). However the ECU and my ESA motor still won't "talk" to each other. Bowker's said they never seen that before and in their opinion it could be a loom issue causing cross communication and confusing the ECU, which then stops trying to talk to the ESA motor. Fixing it could be ££££ while they run through the loom looking for faults. Err, no way - which they expected. The other thing is that in messing about with the ESA motor, specifically banging 12volts into it, I may have screwed it up. Other than that they couldn't suggest a way forward - oh they could but it involved giving them a signed blank cheque - a proper wallet hammering.

My options seem to be:
1. push 12volts into the rear shock motor and get it approx onto the rider+pillion setting.
Pros: Cheap. I still have ESA for the damping.
Cons: Risk of screwing up the rear ESA motor. I have to ride all the time with the bike on stilts - it would effectively be in the off road "high mountain" position as the front is already up. Resale value if I ever sell is seriously down (although by then mileage will be over 100K so probably not a huge impact on value).​

2. Replace rear or both shocks with non-ESA Wilber's (or A.N.Other brand).
Pros: gets me adjustment for solo & pillion use albeit manually. I can offset the cost by selling the WESA shocks (still probably about £500+ to swap); I lose an electronic dooh-dah that is IME a weak spot. I get some brand spanking new shocks (again)
Cons: No ESA at all. Quite expensive. I lose an electronic dooh-dah that is a major feature of the bike; Resale value loss mitigated by still having quality adjustable shocks (some may see as a bonus anyway).
3. Do my own investigations into the loom and the ESA motor.
Pros: It might be cheap if I can find and fix the issue. I get a fully functional ESA system back.
Cons: Nobody is 100% sure its a loom or ESA motor fault. I don't really have the skills or knowledge or tools (a GS911 is not good enough) to do this properly (I have already just about exhausted my skills on this). Huge risk I screw up something else while testing circuits. I will probably need to buy a used ESA motor for testing, parts or as replacement when I completely screw up the existing one after taking it apart. Bike off the road for an extended period while I investigate Cost of electrical parts +used ESA motor may work out about the same as option 2.​

4. Give it to an expert (BMW Motorrad or an independent) with the full diagnostic suite and the skills to rectify electronic faults.
Pros: It will get fixed. I get a fully functional ESA system back. If fault is easily and quickly found it could be cheap.....
Cons: .... but more likely could be hugely expensive in labour and parts.
5. Do nothing.
Pros: Cheap. ESA for damping still works. I have a good excuse not to take the wife out on the bike.
Cons: We use the bike a lot for UK and overseas trips two-up with camping gear. It really needs to be raised at the rear to keep the bike level, stop it from bottoming out and dragging stands and pegs on corners. Extended use this way likely to cause premature wear on shock and other suspension components.
At the mo my preference is option 2 replacing both shocks. Any thoughts?
 

soho

Well-Known Member
That's been a biatch of a story so far, sorry for you both. Think I'd go for option 2 myself.

I'd be happy with that. So too would a potential next owner, knowing you've improved the suspension whilst eliminating further "gismo" failures ? The other options, obviously are more of an unknown quantity in terms of money and solution.
 

outrunner

Well-Known Member
I too would go for option 2 as when you come to sell the bike at least the buyer would not have any fears about electronic gizmos failing (says a man with a bike that has loads of electronics controlling the gearbox and 2 clutches). :whistle: Obviously the choice is yours, but knowing you I think you will take the right option. :)


Andy.
 

Philwhiskeydrinker

Well-Known Member
I'll go against the flow here....

Option 2 for me would mean you spend £500 more now to down grade, plus what, the extra ~£500 or whatever originally that the esa shocks cost over & above the manual versions, add a bit less desirability/extra depreciation when you sell the bike not to mention that it seems the esa is something that you really want/need and like.

I'd say number 4 - get it sorted by a proper mechanic (ie, someone that does proper diagnosis and wants to find the actual problem not just replace components with new (ie main dealer)), someone like Mikeyboy springs to mind.
Even if it costs 1k to repair, it's less (in real terms) than downgrading to non esa.

I love spending other peoples money!

Other random thoughts...
Is it possible to swap over the control unit/ecu, then the handle bar switch thing etc, without lots or reprogramming/learns)? You could try swapping individual components (and hope you don't end up with 2 dead bikes!) if that doesn't sort it it's prob a bad connector or broken wire in the loom, as you say, maybe best not sticking power probes etc in there with can bus unless you know what you are doing

Another thought, I can't recall which bit is not working, f & r preload or just the rear?
Couldn't you rig up a remote switch to power the preload up/down in bodgers corner style [emoji2]

Either way, I hope you get sorted soon.

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Philwhiskeydrinker

Well-Known Member
Thinking about it, probably the easiest & cheapest option would be to take the extras off, put dome knackered shocks on & go for a bimble somewhere quiet & remote, remember to take some matches and a bit of petrol.

I've heard the Trough of Bowland is nice this time of year.....

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austin

Well-Known Member
I'll go against the flow here....

Option 2 for me would mean you spend £500 more now to down grade, plus what, the extra ~£500 or whatever originally that the esa shocks cost over & above the manual versions, add a bit less desirability/extra depreciation when you sell the bike not to mention that it seems the esa is something that you really want/need and like.

I'd say number 4 - get it sorted by a proper mechanic (ie, someone that does proper diagnosis and wants to find the actual problem not just replace components with new (ie main dealer)), someone like Mikeyboy springs to mind.
Even if it costs 1k to repair, it's less (in real terms) than downgrading to non esa.

I love spending other peoples money!

Other random thoughts...
Is it possible to swap over the control unit/ecu, then the handle bar switch thing etc, without lots or reprogramming/learns)? You could try swapping individual components (and hope you don't end up with 2 dead bikes!) if that doesn't sort it it's prob a bad connector or broken wire in the loom, as you say, maybe best not sticking power probes etc in there with can bus unless you know what you are doing

Another thought, I can't recall which bit is not working, f & r preload or just the rear?
Couldn't you rig up a remote switch to power the preload up/down in bodgers corner style [emoji2]

Either way, I hope you get sorted soon.

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
good thoughts Phil :thumbsup:

The fault code said it was a fault at the front but that meant neither shock would adjust as the whole ESA sub-system has just shut down. I really just need to be able to adjust the rear for pillion use. I would live without the adjustment on the front. The bike is a keeper (I think) for the next 3 years at least so I don't spending a bit on it - waaay cheaper than a replacement bike. I am also in no huge rush to get it fixed. The bike is fine solo (in fact better as the raised front end I have ended up with is rather good). Its not too bad with anne on the back - just prone to bottoming out and the stands touch down rather easily. And the headlight is in the sky.

The ESA shocks are actually cheaper than the manual ones so not a downgrade really. The way I see it is: ESA shocks £910 +£200 to marry up the ESA motor. I actually paid £1250 ride in ride out. Non ESA Shocks: £1080 and I can/will fit them myself. I should get £500-600 for the used ESA shocks plus I have had 18months and 25,000 miles of use. The used ESA motors may have some value, say £100 for the pair. SO a pair would have a net cost of around £400 to £500 depending what I get for the used stuff.

OR option 2a I can just replace the rear shock so I can adjust that and leave the front as is. Rear non-ESA shock is £635 and I should be able sell the back shock and motor on their own for say £350 or perhaps a bit more. At the mo this is the most attractive option.

The first thing I want to dismiss before I do anything is the motor itself. A lot changed when I hooked up the one on loan from a guy on UKGSer. I didn't want to play with it too much as its wasn't mine to break. Its also just possible that I have knackered the existing motor by spinning it up directly with 12volts. I have a search on Ebay for a motor but the right one seems difficult to come by without also buying a used shock too. Whenever I do get one if that doesn't do it then it is either ECU or loom.

I also don't want to just take off the motor and play around with it as a) it is not easy to remove from the shock and, b) it appears to be of the tamper-proof type design so possibly knackered after an inspection. and C) means I am off the road until I get another.

I think the right person to look at it would be Mistacat on UKGSer. He doesn't post so much but when he does he is spot on with the electronic stuff. Mikeyboy defers to him as well. The trouble is it it really does feel like blank cheque time as I doubt I would get a quote, at best a vague estimate and at worst I could pay for lots of time and its still not fixed. Bowker were saying that it is often easier and cheaper to replace the loom once you are convinced it is the loom at fault.

I spoke to the Wilbers guys last week. The shock and spring are unique to the ESA version and both are specifically designed around operating with the ESA motor. They said not possible to retrofit any other sort of preload device and the spring also cannot be re-used on another type of Wilber's shock. I do suspect a bit of salesmanship here. It may well be possible to retrofit something but they aren't going to say so are they unless its an off the shelf Wilbers item).

I did read on ADVRider that someone had bodged up a remote adjuster for ESA. They had it one the 'bars and it still used the can bus power. When I can get hold of a motor to play with I will look into this more but it may be beyond me as so far when I have put 12V into the motor I have been able to add preload but not remove it. I suspect it will need something that reverses the polarity via the switch and I don't know how to do that.

Thinking about it, probably the easiest & cheapest option would be to take the extras off, put dome knackered shocks on & go for a bimble somewhere quiet & remote, remember to take some matches and a bit of petrol.

I've heard the Trough of Bowland is nice this time of year.....

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I know its a tongue in cheek suggestion but the bike is still brilliant and perfectly useable. I would set off (solo) to anywhere in the world tomorrow without a real worry about reliability.
 

austin

Well-Known Member
Well, its sort of fixed :respect13::respect13::respect13:

I borrowed another compatible shock from a great guy on UKGSer. This time on a sale or return basis and after hooking up his shock to my loom the Electronic Suspension Adjustment all came back. Calibration tests worked as expected and I could cycle through all the options available. NOT a loom or ECU fault then. After disconnecting this shock but not connecting my own again I could cycle through the options that adjusted the rear preload but didn't try the ones that adjust the front as I didn't want to go back to square one. So its all put back together again and I can set it for pillion or solo use. :) An inadvertent attempt to change the front would most likely cause the fault to return.

So, it looks like it was a fault with my ESA motor all along, although I have been in email dialogue with the people at Tractiv suspension - who make the OEM shocks and motors - who have said a few times that it is important that the shock is set in the position the ECU thinks it is in. My motor wasn't like this and no amount of electricity pushed into the motor would make it adjust. I suppose its possible there is a fault with the shock itself that is causing the motor to stick. Whatever the fault stems from the front ESA preload motor.

I just need to decide if I buy the shock and get the Wilbers guys to swap the ESA motors over. £125 for the shock and motor and something like £50 to £100 for the swap (possibly £0 as I will argue its a warranty issue), plus getting up and down to Brum. I think I will go for it as then everything is back to how it should be. I also end up with a motor to play around with and possibly fix and sell on.
 

Lutin

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A good result there, Austin.

Not as expensive as you first feared - which can only be a plus.

Beers on you then? :beer:
 

Steve T

Well-Known Member
Ace that you've got to the bottom of the problem :respect13: - just a few details to sort and you'll be back to normal :thumbsup:
 
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